Interview with Nathalie Chen

About Nathalie

Nathalie Chen is a rising fourth-year MD/PhD student completing her PhD in microbiology with a focus on infectious diseases. Originally from Reno, Nevada, Nathalie grew up in a non-scientific household—her father worked in IT and her mother was an accountant. Despite having no early exposure to science or medicine, she discovered her passion for biology during high school when she began taking advanced science classes.

Nathalie completed her undergraduate studies at Carnegie Mellon University as a biology major, where she gained research experience that confirmed her interest in pursuing both medicine and research. Her current PhD work centers on Klebsiella pneumonia, a multi-drug resistant bacteria that causes serious hospital-acquired infections. She studies host-pathogen interactions, specifically how this bacteria survives in the human body and interacts with our immune system.

During her undergraduate years, Nathalie participated in a transformative summer research program at the University of Maryland called the Nathan Schnapper Internship Program in translational medicine. This cancer research-focused program emphasized how discoveries move from bench to bedside, working with a unique lab structure that included both PhD scientists and an MD neurosurgeon as principal investigators.

As she prepares to return to clinical rotations, Nathalie is considering infectious diseases as her specialty, which aligns with her research interests in microbiology and host-pathogen interactions.

My favorite quote from the interview:

I think it can seem intimidating—you don't know enough—but no one knows enough.

Watch the video or continue reading to learn more about Nathalie's story.

Transcript

Chelsy Do: Whenever you're ready, we can begin the interview. Nathalie, I wanted to begin asking you about your background and a little about yourself. Can you tell me more about where you grew up and what your early life was like?

Nathalie Chen: Yeah. I mean, so I'm originally from Reno, Nevada. I think my parents weren't in science or medicine. My dad was in IT and my mom's an accountant. I have two younger sisters.

So I think growing up I just liked reading and writing a lot and so I always thought that I'd be like an author, but it wasn't really until high school and college that I got more interested in science and stuff.

Chelsy Do: Was there a particular moment or experience in your childhood that sparked your interest in biology?

Nathalie Chen: Not so much in childhood. I was like a fine student and I took my science classes and stuff and didn't really think that much about it. But it wasn't until high school when I started taking more advanced science classes that I was like, "Oh, this is really cool and something that I'd want to pursue as a career probably." And so then I went to college as a biology major.

And so that really kind of taking those classes really helped me confirm that that was the right path for me that I really liked taking these more advanced classes, especially cell biology and stuff. That was just really interesting to me, and as I started to start working in the lab and stuff like that, really confirmed to me that that was something I wanted to do.

I didn't have a ton of exposure to that as a kid before high school and stuff. So it wasn't until a lot later that I was like, "Yeah, this is the type of thing that I want to do."

Nathalie's Educational Background

Chelsy Do: How did your family or cultural background shape your journey into research? You said you started doing research in undergrad. Was that something that your family ever helped you with or did it ever affect your journey into that?

Nathalie Chen: No, not a ton. I think my parents—I mean they did kind of instill in me a love of learning and reading and stuff and I think that helped me a lot going down the line. But because they weren't in research or science particularly, it wasn't really something that we talked about at home or anything.

And so, when I started to work in labs and stuff and figuring out if I want to go into medicine or do like a PhD, a lot of that was kind of self-research and talking with advisors and other classmates and cold emailing people, kind of learning about what they're doing and that was kind of what helped shape my interests and stuff.

So it wasn't necessarily my parents. It was a lot of self-research to figure out how to do research and how to get experience and stuff.

Chelsy Do: So you said that in undergrad you majored in biology. Was your journey—did you begin as wanting to become a doctor and pursuing a medical degree and then you kind of learned your love for research, or what was kind of the thought process of going from studying biology in undergrad and then being like I want to do an MD/PhD after?

Nathalie Chen: I think it started in high school when I started taking the more advanced biology classes and stuff.

Then I started to kind of look into careers and it's like when you're starting to apply for colleges, you have to say what you want to do, why do you want to major in this, stuff like that. And so in that type of research I kind of stumbled online across the—I obviously knew that there was the MD pathway, just going to med school. There was also the pathway to go to grad school like get a PhD. But just from online research I somehow found that there were these MD/PhD programs and so I went into college knowing that that was a choice that I could make.

So as I was in college and kind of as a biology major, I knew I'm interested in staying in somehow related to biology. And so a lot of my college was kind of checking out the box, doing all the premed things and then doing also a lot of research, and then kind of trying to weigh: do I like research enough that I only want to do research, or do I like the clinical stuff, do I like working with patients and stuff?

And so I kind of just did that all throughout college and talked to a lot of people. I was in a lot of premed clubs and stuff and so we had people come and talk to us and so I was able to talk with them. I was kind of interested in MD/PhD stuff and so my premed advisor at my school helped put me in touch with alumni from our college that had gone on to MD/PhD programs.

So, it was helpful to talk to them about their experiences and why they chose it and things that they did that helped them gain more experience in that type of pathway. So, yeah, it was kind of like I knew that it was an option and I tried out the premed stuff. I did a lot of volunteering and then also did a lot of research and then kind of couldn't decide between the two. Honestly, I just really liked both of them. And so I kind of decided to do both.

And I do kind of see now—I'm kind of farther along the pathway, so I feel like my idea of it has changed. But at the time and I still believe this now—even though I really like patient care and I really like research, I feel like if I did only one, I would still kind of miss the other side. And so for me, that's just kind of the thing. It's just like I really like having the option to do both.

Chelsy Do: Was there a more specific experience or maybe a talk with a mentor that you had that kind of solidified your decision in applying to an MD/PhD program?

Nathalie Chen: I don't think it was ever one specific time because I think throughout my whole journey in college at least, and through my post-bac, I was really thinking about doing an MD/PhD and so everything was just kind of confirming that for me.

I did in my undergrad—one of the summers I did like a research program that was geared towards physician-scientists. It was at the University of Maryland. It's a program called NSIP—Nathan Schnapper Internship Program in translational medicine. And so it's very cancer research focused, which—it's not what I'm doing now, but it was still a great introduction to translational research.

So they put a lot of emphasis on how discoveries from the bench get translated to the clinic. And so at the University of Maryland, one of the really big scientists there discovered what would later become the basis for breast cancer therapies. And so they used that as a teaching point for us. So this is how it started at the bench and then these are the trials and the phases that had to occur for it to become a therapeutic.

And so they also placed us into labs that were pretty translational. So I was placed into a lab that had three PIs, which was interesting. So it was two PIs that were just PhDs, but one was an engineering background, one was more cellular biology. And then the third PI was an MD—not an MD/PhD, he was an MD—but he was a neurosurgeon. And so they do a lot of research.

And so that kind of combination of PIs—they all had different experiences but that helped inform the direction of the lab and helped inform the types of experiments and work they wanted to do. So from that and then also other research experiences I had later where the PIs were very clinically oriented, I could see how clinical perspective really informed their research. And so that was really interesting to me and that's kind of what kept me hooked on this.

Nathalie's MD/PhD Journey

Chelsy Do: Talking more about your MD/PhD path. Can you tell me what year you're in right now?

Nathalie Chen: So, I'm in grad school right now. So, I'm starting the last year of grad school hopefully. So, I'm like a rising G4 student.

Chelsy Do: Could you talk to me more about maybe what kinds of projects you've been working on or going more in depth in your PhD portion?

Nathalie Chen: Yeah. So, I'm doing my PhD in microbiology. We're in the division of infectious disease and so my work has centered on a specific bacteria called Klebsiella pneumonia, which is a gram-negative bacteria that causes a lot of hospital infections. It gets spread a lot in the hospital as well, so a lot of hospital-transmitted infections because it kind of lives in the hospital. It's really multi-drug resistant as well and so that's why it's kind of like this really important pathogen. But I'm more interested in how it interacts with the human body—host-pathogen interaction. So how once it gets into the body, how does the bacteria survive? How does it interact with our immune system? What defenses does our body use to combat the infection?

Chelsy Do: So you're about to finish your last year of your PhD and then after, you're starting clinical rotations. I know that the MD/PhD kind of offers a lot of career flexibility. Having finished your first two years of medical school and then almost on your last year of PhD, do you have any idea of what you want your weekly work life to look like? Kind of that career split and do you know what specialty you want to work towards?

Nathalie Chen: Yeah, I mean I think for now I'm interested in doing infectious diseases. It aligns a lot with my interests. I'm really interested in bacteria, microbiology, that type of thing. And so probably infectious diseases, but I know going into the third year of med school, going through all the rotations, my mind might change. So, we'll see.

In terms of career down the line, I think probably I definitely want to continue seeing patients. So, some people will stop seeing patients at some point, but I think that's something that I really enjoy. And so I still want to practice. And then in terms of how much research—probably the typical type of split. I think it kind of depends on what career stage you're at, how much time you're able to devote to research or how much clinical time you have to do. But probably ideally, I don't know, split throughout the week. So probably you usually have to do more research, so if you have enough funding, hopefully you're able to do more research. But also research takes a lot of time.

So probably most of the week on research and then one or two days in the hospital or clinic.

Advice for Aspiring MD/PhDs

Chelsy Do: Looking back, what do you wish you had known earlier that could have made your journey smoother?

Nathalie Chen: I think a lot of people do most of the right things. I think specifically for MD/PhD, I don't know if I wish I would have done anything different because I just didn't know better at the time. I think what you see between different applicants is just their maturity and how they approach their research. So I feel like I came into research pretty naive. I knew I wanted to try out research and join a lab, but I had no idea what that meant and what type of experiences I should be trying to get as an undergraduate researcher.

And I think my first labs were really great. I think I just wish I had more awareness about—I really should invest more into this. I should be looking things up on my own. I should be reading papers relevant to this and kind of integrating myself more into the lab.

And it's hard to do as an undergrad too because you're kind of just popping in and out of the lab because you have a really busy course load and stuff like that. But I feel like I wish I would have invested more in research—researching more about the lab and kind of having a better understanding of the research I was doing.

Chelsy Do: Kind of backtracking from college, do you have any advice for high school students wanting to pursue a STEM degree in either undergrad or go further into graduate school or an MD/PhD program? What should they be thinking about now or is there anything that they can do to prepare in high school?

Nathalie Chen: I think in high school, it's very, very early days. But I think—yeah, I mean high schoolers get involved in research stuff all the time. Joining science clubs and kind of working on your own project. I think it can seem intimidating—you don't know enough—but no one knows enough. And so as long as you have a mentor who can help you kind of design a project. And I think it's just like how fully invested you are in investigating stuff. So reading literature—and it's hard and stuff—but hopefully there are advisors or people who can help with the clubs. I know people do like science olympiad or science fairs and stuff. So I think those are all really great introductions to it.

And I think just exploring widely but also delving into something deeply. So I think sometimes people try to—either sometimes people are maybe a little bit too flighty and they just kind of do a bunch of different things really superficially, and that doesn't really help. I mean it's nice to see a broad spectrum of things which is really helpful. But I think it also is helpful to kind of do that but also pick something and then dive really deeply into that and try to gain some level of expertise, just to gain practice in doing that. Because when you're doing a PhD, you will have to learn new things all the time and you kind of have to gain the skill of teaching yourself how to do something.

And for the PhD, it's like sure you're getting a PhD in microbiology or immunology or something, but really the PhD is just saying that you're able to learn anything new by yourself. You're able to do the research and gain expertise in this field all by yourself. Because a lot of people switch topics when they go on to do their own research as a PI or a postdoc. A lot of times they'll switch topics from what they did as a PhD student, and it's just the skill set of being able to start fresh and look into things and say, "This is a question I want to answer and then what are the best ways to approach this question?" So that's like the independent skills that you get from a PhD, not necessarily the topic expertise.

And so getting that practice early on in high school, just practicing learning really deeply about something, becoming like a mini expert on something, I think is just helpful down the line.

Chelsy Do: Do you have any advice for current undergrad students that are kind of on the line like you were about—is an MD only right for me? Or is a PhD correct? What should they do in order to kind of figure that out for themselves?

Nathalie Chen: Yeah, I've heard this a lot from other people. Sometimes I think one thing is to consider what other outside pressures are there that are maybe pushing you towards one or the other. I've met some people where they were considering an MD/PhD, but they really loved doing research and truly would have just been a PhD, but their parents really wanted them to become a medical doctor, and so they felt that pressure to do an MD/PhD. But if your true interests are just in research, med school is going to be miserable for you. And so really just clarifying your personal goals versus what are these outside influences.

Beyond that, I think another thing that is important to understand is just the fact that as an MD—even if you do just med school, just an MD—there are a ton of great MD-onlys who do fantastic research. So you do not have to have a PhD to do research. The only thing for an MD/PhD—the only thing that's unique is that they can see patients and do research. So MDs can do research and see patients. PhDs can do research but they can't see patients.

So it's distinguishing: do you want to work with patients directly? Do you want to be treating people? There's a lot of ways to be a PhD and still work with patients. Our lab does a lot of clinical research, and we're also treating patients—we design therapies for them. And so even as a PhD you could be working with patients and saying, "Hey, we're going to develop a custom treatment for you in our lab." You just don't have medical expertise like seeing patients in a doctor's office. So, I think it's determining: do you really want to be treating patients? Like hands-on patient therapy, stuff like that?

So I think you get that from shadowing doctors, from volunteering, seeing do you really like to have this type of interpersonal interactions. And then deciding whether you want to add on a PhD if you decide you want to do clinical work, you want to work with patients, but do you want to also, on top of that, do a lot of research? So there's a lot of programs where they'll give you—and increasingly a lot of people take one year off to do research during med school. And so a lot of people do some degree of research, but it's like if you really anticipate research being a heavy part of your career, then it's helpful to have the PhD because it's really protected time to get practice doing research.

So research—a lot of it just takes up a lot of time. It doesn't work most of the time. It's a lot of failing. And with med school and residency, all the clinical stuff you have to do, it just is so time-consuming. It can be hard to find free time to just play around and just see how do you do this assay? I need to go read a bunch of papers to see what does the literature look like for this field or this question that I'm trying to answer? So getting a sense of how strongly do you want to do research will help you determine that.

Chelsy Do: And then last question, do you have any maybe underrated tips—like something that you've learned that has been unexpectedly helpful during your PhD path? So for current MD/PhDs.

Nathalie Chen: For current MD/PhDs. It really depends on where you are. I guess mostly—I don't know. So, med school is really different for everybody depending on where they are, what medical school they're at, because the curriculums can be so different. I think my advice is mostly just trying to figure out your studying style really early on. I think trying different things. I mean it was hard for me. I still don't think I fully figured it out because it changes from class to class and what resources are available.

But I think figuring that out, developing a strict schedule that you keep to so that you are studying every day to just get into that habit, because then it hopefully makes your life easier down the line.

And then for grad school, I guess it would just be being really organized in the beginning. I feel like as I went through grad school I became more and more aware that the notes that I took were awful or I wasn't organized enough with stuff. It was hard to find data later on. So I think being really organized from the beginning and trying to be consistent with that would have been helpful, but it's a learning process and it is just part of grad school that you make mistakes and later on you're looking back and you're like, "Oh my god, I can't believe I did that." But that's just part of the learning process.

Chelsy Do: Okay, thank you Nathalie again for your time. Those are all the questions that I have. It was a pleasure talking to you.

Nathalie Chen: Yeah, it's great meeting you. I was wondering how did you find me?

Chelsy Do: So I started this blog wanting to interview different PhD students and MD/PhD students specifically in biology and neuroscience. And so I searched up the different PhD programs available in the US and then I went into each school's directory and I found people that I kind of was interested in learning more about their background either based on what school you went to. So, I saw that you went to CMU for undergrad and my cousin goes there to CMU. So, I was just kind of seeing either your background or the research that I was interested in and I just wanted to learn more.

Nathalie Chen: Okay, cool. Do you know how many people you're going to interview?

Chelsy Do: So far, I've done around seven or eight. I'm wanting to do more, so yeah. I'm not sure exactly like the total number yet, but yeah.

Nathalie Chen: Okay, cool. Do you know what you want to do? I'm guessing you are thinking about MD/PhD?

Chelsy Do: I am, but I'm definitely open—you were saying how you went into college knowing that the MD/PhD path was available. I think that's where I'm at where I know that I don't have a lot of experience in either medical or research wise, but the limited experience I have had I kind of liked both. So, I'm excited for college kind of having more opportunities to figure out what I really want to do.

Nathalie Chen: Yeah. Are you starting college this coming year or are you a high school senior right now?

Chelsy Do: I'm a rising senior, so I'll be starting my senior year in the fall. So I'll be applying to colleges.

Nathalie Chen: Okay, cool. Good luck. It's a lot. I feel like—I mean, I think even though you kind of have this idea of sciences, like MD, PhD and stuff, I think college is a great time to learn other stuff that you'll never have the chance to. I feel like the farther you go along in your career, doors just are closing all the time. So, it's like there's so many doors open to you going into college.

I think one of the things I wish I did was take more classes in subjects that weren't necessarily important for my career down the line but are just interesting because you'll never be able to be in a class—if you wanted to take a film studies class you'll never have that chance again to just sit in a class and thoroughly dissect a film and talk with people who are all also interested in this and want to have a full discussion. It's hard to find that down the line if that's not your career. So taking fun classes like history classes. Obviously as a STEM major you for sure have to take your STEM classes and it's worthwhile to start taking grad level classes as a junior and senior—that'll be helpful down the line. I think it was helpful for me at CMU. I got a really solid foundation in STEM and stuff like that. But I wish I'd tried to take more classes outside of STEM—taking more history classes or fun classes, stuff like that.

It's hard to balance. It's just a lot of stuff. But it is one of the things like once you leave college, you'll never really be able to take that anymore because you have too many other obligations or you're going to be taking a college class with a bunch of college kids, but you're a lot older. It's weird. So just enjoy college. It's like, this will be the last time you'll have college again. So just enjoy it.

Chelsy Do: Thank you. So, I've been working looking at applications and the process and stuff and it's a lot. So, I'll be working on that this fall.

Nathalie Chen: Good luck.

Chelsy Do: Thank you so much. Bye-bye.